By Shawn Perry
Guitarist Scott Gorham enjoyed his first taste of success in the 1970s as a member of Thin Lizzy. Together with guitarist Brian Robinson, the group’s lone American was responsible for the twin guitar attack on “The Boys Are Back In Town,” “Jailbreak,” and a multitude of others. He played on nine studio albums for Thin Lizzy, including their final release, 1983’s Thunder And Lightning. Three years later, founder Phil Lynott was dead, and so, presumably, was the idea of ever reviving Thin Lizzy.
Various incarnations of Thin Lizzy with Gorham and other former Lizzy members have popped up since, but when it came to making new music, the guitarist decided to create a new band. So in 2012, together with singer Ricky Warwick, he founded Black Star Riders. “The Lizzy connection is there,” Warwick has said, and four albums later, the group chips away at establishing an identity all their own. Another State Of Grace, their long playing release for 2019, is definitely a step in the right direction.
Speaking with Gorham over a transatlantic call to his home in London, I got the sense that the guitarist is still as passionate about his craft and his music as ever. Personnel changes, taking a different approach, trying new things, any drop in the temperature — none of it seems to phase him as he continues to record and tour. Gorham seems intent in taking Black Star Riders as far as it can go. His days with Thin Lizzy, however, continue linger, most likely reignited by the recent announcement that the group has been nominated as an inductee into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. For Gorham, it’s an honor that is both hard-won and well-deserved.
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Let’s talk about this new Black Star Riders release for 2019, Another State Of Grace. This is the group’s fourth album and your first with Christian Martucci. You’ve played with a lot of guitar players in your career. How would you describe playing with Christian?
So far, it’s been a dream. Before rehearsals, before for the Another State Of Grace album, I’d never met Christian. The only thing I knew about him was what I dialed up on YouTube, watching some live performances that he did with Stone Sour. We tried a few other guys and they just didn’t float my boat at all. I kept passing. “No, that guy’s not right, that guy’s not right.” He sent in a couple of videos where he had done three Black Star Riders songs, and it’s like, “Wow, let’s go.” You know, he’s playing them great. He’s got the timing there, he’s got all the parts. This is great. And that’s when I went to YouTube to see the Stone Sour stuff, to see him in his own element, and he was great.
The first time I got to know him was shaking his hand the first day in LA. It was the first day of rehearsals. From that point on, we just really hit it off and we’re great friends. His guitar playing, his style, is quite a bit different from mine as opposed to the last gentleman, Damon Johnson, we were kind of similar. I do like that difference in guitar styles because it feels like it just kind of widens the sound out that much more. He’s a great sort of sound craft kind of guy. He comes up with these parts, and you go, “Geez, I wouldn’t have thought of that. That’s great.” He was doing the same with me, and there was a lot of back slapping going on between me and him. I think you can tell on the record, that he and I both had a great time in the studio.
In the studio, what’s the process? Is it my understanding that Ricky Warwick pretty much writes the songs, then you and Christian dress them up with the riffs? Or do you all write?
Well, we all write. Ricky does write quite a bit. In fact, he does all the lyrics. Right from the very get-go, he goes, “Listen guys. Do you mind if I just take care of the lyric side of things.” Because his way of thinking is he can only really sings things that he truly believes in. If I was to write something that he didn’t quite believe in and but I really liked it, there might be friction there, right? So it’s like, “Yeah, you go ahead and take it, you do the lyrics. We need you nice and comfortable up in the front there.”
On this album here, we did it in a really different way. Talking to Christian, we had a little conference call going and he said, “Listen guys. I’ve done this on one album before because we had the same problems.” Because we all live thousands of miles away from each other, in different time zones and the whole deal. He said, “Why don’t you try it like this — when I’m on a road, I take my Pro Tools with me.” It’s in his laptop and all that. And he says, “Backstage at the Stone Sour concerts and on the bus and the hotel rooms. This is what I’d like to suggest: You guys record down all your different ideas on your iPhone or your iPad send them over to me and I’ll start trying to glue all these ideas and things together in some form.” and I immediately went, “Uh…really? I don’t know. I kind of like being in the same room with all the guys, kind of eyeballing and shoulder-to-shoulder, looking each other in the eye.” He said, “Well, you know, let’s give it a shot.” I thought the one thing this is going to do, it’s going to save us so much time in the studio like you will not believe. We only had 13 days to get this down on tape. So I said, “What the hell, I’ll give it a shot.” I sent in 20 ideas, Ricky probably sent in 25, Robbie (Crane) the bass player, he sent in a few. Lo and behold, he was back there with his Pro Tools gluing all these different parts of ours together, plus his own, and he would send the results back. You know, “Here’s this song, what do you think? What do you think of that one? Why I got this I just finished that one. You know, for the most part, you go, “Yeah, man, that sounds fucking great.” There was a couple where you go, “Yeah, I’m not so keen on that one, right?”
Really, what it did and he was absolutely right, we were able to get into the rehearsal, already pretty much knowing what we were doing, so we didn’t have to really fuck around with the arrangements forever. They were all kind of there or thereabouts. Obviously, there’s always going to be a little tweaking going on, but for the most part it saves so much time doing it that way that I can’t believe I was doubting it in the first place. That’s how it all kind of started out.
You mentioned that Ricky writes the lyrics and there’s some heavy lyrics on this record. He describes “Ain’t The End Of The World” as a song of hope, positivity and seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel in a world of uncertainty, which is certainly pertinent to the times. Then he gets a little more pointed on “Why Do You Love Your Guns?”
That’s a whole other subject, “Why Do You Love Your Guns?” That’s kind of aimed at America. A little over a year ago, we had landed in Miami. And on the day that we landed, just a few miles down the road, there was a mass school shooting. That pretty much affected everybody in the hotel. It wasn’t just us, it was everybody. You could see everybody talking in whispered tones and all that. It was a very, very strange feeling, and it affected all of us. Ricky and I started talking about it in the back of the tour bus, at the hotel and the gig. You know Ricky actually was born and raised in the 70s in Belfast, where they had the troubles. So, it’s kind of slammed into his DNA, seeing problems in society and people dying because of the whole gun thing. It’s something that he really believes in and I believe in. The main thing we believe in is, “Okay, have a gun but Jesus Christ, do you need so many of them?” And the mental health check. We cannot understand why so many people are against the health checks for getting a gun license now. I was just talking about this in another interview and the journalist was saying like over 90% of the population of America believes that you should have the mental health check in place to be able to get a gun. But it’s down to the government who won’t pass the law. What the hell’s going on there? I don’t know, it just seems like an obvious thing.
Definitely a hot-button issue here in the States. Let’s talk about some of the riffs on the record. The title track has a nice Irish swagger, and then one of my favorites is “Soldier In The Ghetto” with the clavinet.
Yes, we’re bringing the clavinet back. We’re bringing it back, I love you Stevie Wonder (laughs).
It sounds great with the guitar.
You know what’s funny is Ricky had that in mind the whole time. He goes, “Yeah, we could put clavinet on this.” I look at him and go, “What the fuck are you talking about…the clavinet? Nobody uses the clavinet.” Ricky loves Motown. So, he either comes up with these kind off-the-wall things. You know, “We’re a rock band.” But as soon as I heard it playing, I said “Oh, yeah now that sounds cool.” It’s so weird to hear that instrument now on a rock song, it kind of works.
I was watching some of your videos on YouTube. There’s “Ain’t The End Of The World,” which is kind of apocalyptic…
Yep. But you know that’s not really an apocalyptic song. The way Ricky described it to me — it’s about a guy who’s really in love with this chick. But she says, “Forget it. I’m not in love with you, go away,” and he goes, “Well, you know, I love you, but guess what? It’s not the end of the world, the world keeps turning around.” I thought, “That’s a good attitude to have instead of hanging yourself in the broom closet. OK, that didn’t work.”
I got that from the lyrics and then I did see the video and it didn’t seem to follow that storyline at all (laughs). I was checking out the comments — I don’t know if you ever look at the comments on your videos — and they’re pretty unanimous in that they see your music as sort of “Thin Lizzy Phase 2,” which I think was sort of your intention in putting the band together. With that in mind, how would you distinguish the music of Black Star Riders from Thin Lizzy?
Well, I definitely would not call it “Thin Lizzy Junior” at all. Yeah, we did come out of the ashes of Thin Lizzy, if I can put it like that. Yeah, with the first album, All Hell Breaks Loose, I do hear the Lizzyesque thing going on there. But with each album that we produce, we seem to get further and further away from that. Now, if every time anybody hears a harmony guitar and we’re going to get hit with the whole Thin Lizzy thing, there’s nothing I can do about that.
My whole thing is like if any band has got two guitars in it, what else are you going to do? Right? You’re going to put some harmony guitars in there. Then it’s down to the two guys figuring out which style of harmony guitars you’re going to use and I guess, maybe some of this is my fault. I was in Thin Lizzy for such a long time and did so many albums that that’s kind of what I do. Saying that, I love the band Thin Lizzy. I thought it was a really cool band to be in and if we get identified or put alongside Thin Lizzy, I’m OK with that.
I have to give you kudos for changing the name when it came to making new music. I think that was a very classy move.
Thank you.
I respect you for doing that totally. Obviously that twin guitar approach was part of Thin Lizzy’s success that you’ve carried on with Black Star Riders. So I did want to ask you about some other guitar players that you’ve played with if you don’t mind.
Sure…I hate them all (laughs).
You mentioned Damon Johnson earlier, who I actually had the pleasure of speaking with over the summer. What was the relationship between you and him like? How did the chemistry between you two develop?
Well, you know something, Damon and I have always been great friends. We will always be great friends. Before his demise in Black Star Riders, he had been hinting like a year before that he might have to leave because he’s got two kids at home and mainly our stomping ground is over here in Europe — 5,000 miles away from where he lives. He wants to watch his kids. It’s hockey season and his daughter is doing the ballerina and all that, and he’s kind of missing out on all that. So you know when he finally came to me and said, “Listen Scott,” almost with tears in his eyes. I said, “Buddy listen – the whole thing with being in a band is this is not a jail sentence, you you get in these things and when you got to go you got to go. The world keeps spinning. It’s okay, don’t worry about it.” I think that made him feel a lot better about , being able to leave, if I could put it that way. I had Damon come up and do the guitars on these last four Thin Lizzy shows we did over the summer. People didn’t understand that. “Isn’t he the enemy now?” “No, he’s not.” I love Damon. I always wish and hope the best for him — in his music and whatever he’s going to do.
How about John Sykes?
I thought Sykes and I were a very good guitar partnership. Unfortunately with John, Phil (Lynott) and I had already decided that the Thunder And Lightning album was going to be the last album. And this last world tour was going to be the last world tour and it was over with. So John really only got probably a year, maybe got 18 months out of being in Thin Lizzy. The relationship and what we did together was really cool. I think the Thunder And Lightning album, if you know that album, there’s some really good guitar playing on there. I think the writing is pretty good. All and all, it was a good album to end with.
What are your memories of working with Gary Moore?
Gary initially came in as a replacement for Brian Robertson. On the eve of the tour we were going to be doing with Queen for God’s sake. It was a three month arena tour all the way across America and back again. Brian goes out and cuts his goddamn hand and that’s it. Now he can’t play guitar. So the only guy that Phil could think of was Gary because he played with him before. He knew a majority of the stuff and he was such a good player. He was such a good player that the stuff he didn’t know, he was going to be able to come up to speed with very quickly. And I had never played with Gary up this point and when we got in our first day of rehearsal and I heard we he was playing, I thought, “Holy fuck man! How am I going to keep up with this guy?” (laughs)
But it’s great. You always want to play with somebody who’s just a little bit better than you. As musicians, we’re always learning, right? And stealing at the same time. So he was a great guy to learn and steal from (laughs). At the same time, he was a good guy, he wrote some good stuff in the band. Ultimately he was a solo artist. I think he was pretty much biding his time until he could get out of Thin Lizzy and start his own solo career. Unfortunately, he picked a really bad time to quit the band, which was right in the middle of an American tour, a really important one. His timing was shit in life, but not on his instrument. He apologized about that profusely a few years after that.
You did mention Brian Robertson who you recorded those great classic Thin Lizzy records with. How would you describe playing with him? How did you guys become this twin guitar dynamo?
I have so much affection for Brian Robertson. But the problem is Brian Robertson is his own goddamn worst enemy. He keeps tripping himself up, getting himself into trouble. Brian Robertson probably right now should be a guitar superstar and he just kind of blew it. He let all these kind of peripheral things decide his life for him, to the point where he’s pretty much a recluse now and he doesn’t play guitar any longer. It’s just a shame. I think about him a lot and I wish his career hadn’t ended like that, and as soon as it did. Because he could have gone on to do some really, really great things. Unfortunately, life got in the way.
I look back on those times with a lot of fun memories. It was me and him — we together created the guitar template for Thin Lizzy. Anybody else who came in to fill that right-hand spot on the stage, they already had a blueprint to follow. No matter how good you were or whatever, there was still a template, a blueprint, and you had to follow that. And as long as you got that, anything in between goes. Have a great time, do what you do because you’re in the band because you do what you do. But, like I say, there is a template. So let’s stick to the template and then we’ll start creating new things, which we did with each new guy who came in the band. You got to respect the history of the band and then we’ll create something brand new with you and hopefully that will be just as good as what had gone on in the past.
It’s been it’s been over 30 years since Phil Lynott has passed away. What do you miss most about working with him, being his friend? Is there anything in particular that you think about when you think of him?
I miss it all you know; I still miss him to this day. He was that guy that had the swagger even when shit was crumbling right down to his ankles man. You would never be able to tell because he wasn’t going to let you know that there was a problem. He could handle it all. He was that guy — you know when they say, it’s corny to say, but he has “it.” Whatever “it” is, right? Well he had “it.” He was the kind of guy that could put a shirt on and he would look great in it. And he would go, “Here man. Scott, try this shirt on,” and I would put it on and look like a fucking clown in it. But he could pull it off. He just had that thing. I miss his drive also. Ricky has the same thing. He has the Lynott drive.
I was going ask you there are any similarities between Ricky and Phil.
I see the same things in Ricky. Maybe it’s an Irish thing. I don’t know man, but these guys, they have this drive that drags you along with them and you’re willing to go along on that ride because it’s such a cool ride. Phil had that kind of fire in his eyes the whole time that really kind of kept you on your toes. He was alert about everything around you kind of deal. I just thought he was a really creative guy.
It was maybe a year after Phil died and I was in a guitar shop in London and Pete Townshend walks in. I’ve known Pete for years. We recorded like three albums in his studio. We saw each other and he came straight over and said, “Oh man, I haven’t been able to tell you but I was so sorry to hear about Phil.” And I said, “Well, if anybody’s going to know how that feels, it’s going to be you.” I was kind of alluding to Keith (Moon). And he looked at me and he goes, “Yeah, but I want to miss Phil a lot more.” (Laughs) I didn’t actually know what to say at that point. You know, should I go, “Yeah, you’re right.” I didn’t know the answer, but it was cool for him to say that.
So you’re touring the UK this month. What’s happening after that?
It’s about a two and half week run here in the UK — England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Then immediately after that, we jump over to Europe for seven weeks and I think we’re hitting every major city over there for that next seven weeks.
Our main goal right now really is to somehow get ourselves back over to America. We were over there about a year and a half ago with Judas Priest, but I think we need to get back over there with this album just to show America what with Black Star Riders is all about.
